Molly Ruland:

We’ll have the countdown here, and then we will get going. Let me open up the car. That would be good. Alright. Alright. Welcome to camp content. We are coming in hot with another episode, and this one is all about copywriting. So stay tuned. I’m really excited to introduce Sophia Dagnon. She’s a B2B copywriter and digital marketing consultant specializing in all things social media and copywriting. She writes fresh, clean copy and tests a bunch of marketing techniques so you don’t have to. But it doesn’t just stop there. Sophia is just another copywriter in the tech domain. She’s a master of conversion focused content that drives results with an uncanny ability to delve deep into the mindset of customers. Sophia employs noninvasive strategies to extract the very essence of what they desire, think and feel. The result is highly tailored funnels, emails, and landing pages that resonate with target audiences, compelling them to act. but her prowess doesn’t end there with marketing with crafting riveting copy as the head of customer insights at copy and copy at get uplift, she champions a unique approach. Get Uplift stands apart with its distinct customer first conversion methodology. It’s a harmonious blend of data analytics with emotional analysis, ensuring businesses not just reach their potential customers, but touch their hearts and drive conversions, leads, and sales. So without further ado, that’s a lot of information, but this is really important because copywriting is literally an art that very few people recognize. So without further ado, welcome to the show, Sophia. I’m very excited to have you today.

Sophia Dagnon:

Thank you very much, Molly. That was an amazing introduction. So thank you for that. I’m so excited to chat.

Molly Ruland:

Hey. You’re welcome. Well, you know, we wanna do research on people we’re sitting with so we can have a good and provide value and not waste your time and provide some value for the audience. So, so thanks for coming. So let’s jump in. you’ve been doing copywriting for 10 years. So you have probably seen a lot of change, but let’s talk a little bit about what brought you into the copywriting sphere in the first place?

Sophia Dagnon:

I think it was just, like, a graduation archaeology, which, of course, is, like, utterly related to marketing and stuff that I was like, alright. So I need, like, a job job as an adult. And archaeology is really hard on your body unless you go into academia. So I was like, well, I don’t wanna be having surgeries, but I’m 30. So, like, writing is safer. And so I got into content marketing, and social media marketing and kind of just explored from there until I ended up in copywriting and now CRO.

Molly Ruland:

So what ‘s a perfect segue because what is CRO? What is that?

Sophia Dagnon:

Okay. So that stands for conversion rate optimization and, like, a normal way to put it would just be we try to help you get more leads in sales and get a hit whatever goes you’re doing. So it’s just very focused on Is this page converting at the rate you want it to be? Is it getting as many customers through the door? And what can we do better to help you grow your business?

Molly Ruland:

And is that like a tool, like a CRM tool, or is that just like a process that you apply for?

Sophia Dagnon:

It’s a process. So to kind of, like, quickly summarize the process, it starts with a lot of customer research where we really get to know the customer, the market, and the product. And then how that goes is you then just test different strategic approaches, like on your landing pages, in any messaging, in emails, So it’s a mix of them copywriting and testing.

Molly Ruland:

Interesting. So when you engage with a new client, you’re probably doing a ton of research for right, learning a lot about them, looking at what they’ve already done, looking at that data. —

Sophia Dagnon:

Yeah. How — Everything says it in all that always because otherwise you have nothing to go on. You’re just guessing.

Molly Ruland:

Well, exactly. And, you know, I wanted to ask you about emotional targeting, right, because we talked about that in relation to the CRO. So, like, what is emotional targeting?

Sophia Dagnon:

Okay. So to kinda pull back and set the scene a little bit, a lot of CRO programs test things like elements. So, you know, you have, like, your website page. And so when you’re doing testing, you’d be like, okay. What happens if we change the button? What happens if we change this headline? What happens if we add a new section straight in? And all of these things can be good, but when you’re testing elements, you’re not really testing an overall strategy. Right? Like, you’re not testing a particular hypothesis. I think if my customers have received this information, they will take this particular action. And so where emotional targeting comes in, instead of just testing elements, we build an idea of what the person likes, your best fire really wants. And then we test the strategy based around those needs. So each trash is like, okay. So this person feels this pain, So in order to help them, like, connect them with this product so they can decide if it’s right for them, we need to hit on this pain, we need to tell them these three things that they absolutely need to know, and then, you know, we get them to convert, but you’re always testing against that strategy instead of just, oh, these are cool practices to add in.

Molly Ruland:

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you don’t have a strategy, then you’re not gonna hit your target. And that’s just the reality of it because there’s so many shiny things happening in life. You can get off target if you’re not really clear on what the goal is. so that’s really interesting because I don’t think that a lot of people have a real clear on, like, who they’re who they’re actually targeting, you know, or who they’re actually talking to. Right? Like, that’s a big distinction between targeting and talking to. And I think we have this, like, idea if we’re talking to the internet, millions of people, or that’s the goal to go Hiro, but, like, you’re really not. Right? Like, you’re talking to a small group of people. Most businesses, although you were you guys, get up after working with some really, really large companies. and have really large audience bases. But the average business owner, you know, 10 new clients a year could, like, change their life drastically. So you’re not speaking to a stadium full of people. You’re really speaking to very specific people. How do you dial in on that? How do you find the emotional profiling information? How does that work?

Sophia Dagnon:

Okay. So we have a very specific process that absolutely works for every business, and it kinda starts as a 3 pronged approach. So number 1 is customer research. And by customer research, I mean, we do 3 things. We do a visitor survey, which you just put on your website, And the purpose of that, usually, a homepage. If you have a bigger company and you have a lot of traffic, you can experiment with other key pages as well. But let’s say you’re a smaller business, Send like, put that survey on the pages and most people do, which would typically be your home page. And what you’re trying to find is: It’s really like the answer to 3 main questions. Well, one main question is just why people are there in the first place. Like, what drove them to a particular website, what problem are they trying to solve and what is stopping them from solving it right now with you? And so you pop these three questions in there, VISTA surveys over 3 questions tend to be tricky. Like, people will absolutely drop off. Expect them to drop off after the first question. So that’s just how it works, but that survey helps set the scene for you. So you understand if the traffic landing there is actually people that you can do business with.

Molly Ruland:

Right.

Sophia Dagnon:

The second thing is you send out a customer survey to your best customers. So make sure that you send that to people that actually, you know, really enjoy your product or you enjoy working with. Otherwise, the responses you get will not be as useful. And what you’re trying to find through that survey is what are the pains that actually drove them to you? So everybody’s switching from something, right? Like whenever you buy something, you’re switching from that before state. where you were in some kind of pain irritation, something just wasn’t working the way it’s supposed to, and you’re trying to switch to that other state but you’ve been using something to try to solve that pain. Whether that’s, like, doing nothing or using a different product or just, like, sitting at your desk crying because, like, life is terrible. you’re switching from something. So in that survey, you’re trying to understand, what did that person switch from? And what was that process like? Like, where did they look? And so you just asked them questions about, like, to remember back to what they actually did. So you’re getting them to tell you that story of, like, I was feeling this, then I switched, then I felt this, but I wanted to feel this when I chose this solution. and so you’re building that story, but writing is great. You can’t beat a conversation. So from there, you kind of take the people that gave you the best survey responses. We’re like, oh, this is really interesting. This really resonates with what I know about my customers. and then you invite them to chat with you. And, you know, most of the time, you won’t really need to do anything more than just say, hey, we are updating our website, like, could you help us out by having a quick conversation? And most people will respond. You can offer incentives and stuff if they don’t, but frankly, we’ve just had a really good response rate. We’re just reaching out, letting people know we are researching and asking them to chat. And then in that chat, you start digging into those pains further. So you can really understand what those emotional drivers of the buying decisions are. Because ultimately, that’s where all your strategy and where all your copy comes from because you just in any human interaction, you’re just solving problems. You’re solving a pain. So you have to know what that pain is, and then you, you solve it. And it’s kinda lost now with the original question. Just start talking about research. Yeah.

Molly Ruland:

Well, we were talking about, you know, what kind of research you do. And then how do you implement that ? So, right, like, you’ve built this emotional profile. You figured out their pain points. I love this. Send the survey to people. Send it to your best clients. Figure out their pains. Figure out what they were feeling when they wanna switch. And then once you have all that, how do you then implement that into your marketing? Because a lot of people, it’s like a lot of pushing for like, what we have, our products, our services, our this, our that, how do you take that information that you’ve gotten and then turn that into a copy that makes That’s a

Sophia Dagnon:

good question. Okay. So you start analyzing, but let me actually, like, back this all up with an example. So while back, we worked with this e-commerce company that made a product that helped you straighten your posture out. So it just helped you fix your posture. And so initially, you know, we come in. And the team there was fantastic. They were testing a bunch of really interesting things, but they were still selling the product to everyone because, I mean, when you think about it, like, everyone wants a better posture. Right? Like, this is literally a fit for every human. But the thing is that when you target every human, every human does not respond because they’re like, well, this is kind of, like, generic. Like, this could be great, but I’m just not connecting with it. And so we did the process I just described, and as you were talking to people, again, at, like, 3 very distinct personas and pains came up. So the 3 pains were people just didn’t like looking at photographs. and that was a major thing. It’s like, I just want to fix my posture so I can look better. When I look back at my pictures, like, I want to feel good about myself. Then there were people who had switched to remote work, so they were working at home in front of their laptops. And they found themselves moving closer and visited a computer kind of as the day went on. So, like, no, my back is really sore after work. Like, this isn’t a life I’m willing to, like, lead. I need to fix my posture. And the third one was just health conscious people. We’re like, I’m just feeling knee pain, I’m feeling joint pain, I need to do something to fix it now, I suspect it’s my posture. And so kind of identify those 3 drivers, and then you just start connecting your messaging to that. you start thinking of, okay. So when I want this ad and actually talking to this person, let me just paint a picture of who they are. like, you’re an office worker. You’re feeling this. This product helps you fix this problem. And so you just start connecting based on the patterns that you see.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense because, intuitively, you know, as a business owner, you wanna say, like, this is what we do. This is the product we offer, and we put pictures of ourselves, right, especially in the entrepreneurial world and coach world. It’s like a lot of pictures of themselves, right, you know, and it’s like, No. You want a picture of the woman whose life you’re trying to transform, you know, especially in that kind of a space, right, because it’s like, I don’t wanna see you looking pretty and well adjusted and beautiful and in sunset pictures. I’m over here struggling trying to figure my life out. I need you to help me. I don’t want I don’t want you to be perfect. I wanna see something that looks like myself there. Like, oh, she looks like me, you know, because I don’t look like her. I don’t look like the lady in the sunset with the flowing address in a yoga pose. That’s not me. I look like the lady at my desk who’s been there for 15 hours. She’s looking for something else. That’s what I wanna see in the marketing, not some perfect person. It’s like —

Sophia Dagnon:

Exactly. Like, it’s stuff you nailed it. It’s meeting people where they’re at. Because at some point, you may want to show off that state if that is if, you know, you’re selling becoming that shiny haired person.

Molly Ruland:

Right.

Sophia Dagnon:

But especially at the beginning of the journey, you want to connect with the person with where they actually are and where they’re struggling.

Molly Ruland:

Exactly. You know, it’s really interesting because I think copywriting is just one of those things that people don’t really do. Most people don’t understand how valuable and important it is. especially things like split AB testing. Right? You know, I think people have heard it and they kinda know what it means, but I don’t see people, too many people outside of, like, marketing agencies and copywriting people actually doing it. You know? YouTube has some tools now that’ll help you split test different titles for your video, which is great. But can we talk about that a little bit more and how you use that in copyright or how that would be relevant for a small business owner? You know?

Sophia Dagnon:

So the thing about AB testing is that the larger you are, the more useful it is, at least in terms of how the tools work. So no matter your size, being roughly aware of your analytics and, like, essentially, how people come into the page is useful. But when it comes to using those formal tools, because you need to have a certain number of people go through it to reach statistical significance to basically know if the test works or if you’re just falling into something called, like, the law of small numbers where small numbers group in really weird and predictable ways that don’t actually bear out if you have enough people going through them. I recommend not using those specific tools until you have enough traffic but you can still do testing as long as you just do pattern testing. So you look at something that happened in a particular period of time, and then you see if you’re increasing conversions based on your actions. So you’re more looking to grow over time. Like, the smaller you are, the more you just need the trend line to generally go up. I mean, it’s obviously going to do that wiggle thing because all trend lines always do, no matter what we do. But you’re looking at, like, trending upwards, and I think that’s where testing specific strategies, like copy strategies, on your landing pages on your ads. It’s like, okay. So I did all this research. I now feel that my, like, the customers I want to go after have this very specific pain. You write a landing page that just hits that specific pane, as well as you can. And then you see, okay, like, in 4 weeks, has this landing page go up? And then if you’re using paydads, you can do a little bit more AB testing in there because those tools usually give you fairly good results. But if you’re just getting tested by yourself, look for that trend line.

Molly Ruland:

So that’s helpful. So get Uplift is that you guys are working with some really big people, like Sprout Social, and I looked at your client list. So you, you know, you’re probably working with companies that have massive, databases and audiences and things like

Sophia Dagnon:

that. Yeah. So we do a lot of traditional AB testing, but, yeah, I wouldn’t recommend getting selected at rabbit hole when you’re still growing.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I think focusing on copywriting is better. So for somebody who’s like a small business owner, right, who’s not like a sprout social or a really big company like that, what would you recommend they do? Like, if they’re like, alright, I know my copy sucks. I’m listening to this episode for a reason. What’s one great actionable thing that they could do to improve their content today or or landing page today?

Sophia Dagnon:

So Kana, this is 2 things, but kind of combined to 1. So number 1, go through a copy and actually just remove all your filler words. Everybody has a bunch of filler words and phrases that we add in because this is how humans write. Like, absolutely everybody writes this way. But when you’re writing for your own business, you don’t have time to go through and actually fix those during the editorial phase. So chances are they’re still on your site. So just go through it. And whenever you’re saying things that don’t change the meaning of the sentence, just cut them. And it will lead to a much cleaner, much more focused kind of copy and the, kind of upside or, like, the terrifying side of that is that you suddenly be able to see what you’re actually saying. because when you strip out all the not fluff with all the covers around the writing, you’re like, oh, wait. I thought we were saying, act. but we’re actually saying why? Because the fluff language just let me believe that we’re actually saying something pretty different. So that lets you look at what you’re actually saying. Then the next part is, are you saying, like, is what you’re saying aligned with the pain? Because the thing about copywriting where I think a lot of people get stock is the field has to be perfect. And the actual words on top, you can get away with it being good enough and still get great results. What has to be perfect is whether you identify the correct pain. Pain. Because if you’re not solving the correct pain, it doesn’t matter how good everything sounds. like, it just won’t work. So cut the fluff, make sure to identify the correct pain. if you’re not, right copy to, you know, solve that pain. and then cut the fluff again and see how that works.

Molly Ruland:

That’s super helpful. I’m gonna go do that with my own website. You know, we We do a lot of, you know, descriptions of the podcast episodes, and we’ve really been, like, you know, focusing with the team on, like, lean away from adjectives and focus more on keywords and focus more on anchor words and that, like, leave 90% of those adjectives out of the mix because it just complicates things. You know, it’s like —

Sophia Dagnon:

And there’s a place for that as well. Like, there’s absolutely a place to create more descriptive blog posts to create for that. Certain email types can be great for that. Right. It’s just because your site really thinks of it like it’s a storefront. It’s a directional tool. You’re using it to direct people to different places. That’s when you want to be as clear with your directions as a human they can.

Molly Ruland:

Exactly. So Sofia, before we go, where can people find you, and how can they work? you?

Sophia Dagnon:

You can find us at get up with the code. We have a bunch of resources. We have a fantastic free email course that kind of gives you more context on emotional triggers and how to use different psychological triggers in your marketing, which is a great place for small business owners to start. But otherwise, yeah, get up with that code.

Molly Ruland:

Awesome. Well, thank you for your time, Sophia. Have an excellent day. and you’ll I’m sure you’ll hear from me again soon because I love the work you’re doing. And thank you for tuning into camp content. we’ll see you again real soon. Until then, be excellent to each other. Thank you.