Molly Ruland:

Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Alright. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to Camp Content, where we talk about content marketing and revenue drivers in 2024. Today, our guest is Steven Sheiner, a leader in media and marketing with over 35 years of experience shaping industry standards. His key areas of expertise include data driven marketing, sales, and monetization strategies across diverse sectors, such as robotics, pet applications, and digital platforms. Steven’s executive journey includes roles like chief revenue officer at Vivendi, Universal Net USA, where he managed notable entities such as mp3.com androllingstone.com, and an executive VP at mp3.com, guiding the company through its landmark IPO.

Molly Ruland:

He also is a renowned speaker on topics of emerging media and digital marketing innovation. Today, we’ll explore shifts in sales dynamics due to the Internet, strategies for revenue growth in commoditized markets, and the value of unconventional hiring. So, without further ado, welcome to the show today, Steven. Thanks for being here.

Steven Sheiner:

No. Thanks for inviting me.

Molly Ruland:

Absolutely. So I got to say, the first thing that I noticed in your form that you filled out is that you don’t have a website. And I thought that this is the first guy I’m gonna interview who doesn’t have a website. And so I love that you’re focused on digital strategies, and you don’t you don’t have a website. So, give me a little background, a snapshot of what you’re doing right now. You know, are you working as a company or are you working through a company? Give me a snapshot of what your professional

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah. So, yeah, very much like the, you know, the doctor that smokes. So, essentially, I mostly work with companies on a consultative basis, and I have for probably the last 20 years. And in between, I’ve had a bunch of businesses of my own that I built and sold, a couple that didn’t do too well, some that did okay. And the reason that I don’t have a website is that I really don’t actively go out and find clients. People come to me based on usually referrals and conversations that I’ve had, and I take on projects that I think are gonna be fun and interesting. And I just really don’t feel the need to create a website to go after business, so I don’t do it. It’s one of those things I constantly think I should do and then just don’t get around to doing.

Steven Sheiner:

I know.

Molly Ruland:

I mean, listen, if it’s working, if you don’t need one, then why add that stress and expressing expense into your life if you don’t really need it? I mean,

Steven Sheiner:

You know what I try and do, what I mostly do with clients is I look for the things that aren’t necessarily obvious, and I try to find ways to take what I call adjacencies and turn them into revenue streams. And the real key is to think about what happened essentially after 1998, 99 when the Internet started to take off and the change in the paradigm. You know, prior to the Internet, salespeople and most businesses had the advantage that they were the ones that knew everything and the clients didn’t know anything. And they depended very much on salespeople to be able to tell them what they needed to know to make a decision, which is why you wanted to buy a photocopier. You had 3 companies come in and give you a pitch. You wanted to buy a car, you went to 15 different car dealerships and checked out every car. You did all these things where salespeople were actually part of the information and a very important part of you gathering information to make a decision. The Internet changed all that.

Steven Sheiner:

It actually changed it in the way that now the power of information, sorry about that. The power of information that the salespeople and the companies have moved over now to the buyer who they had all this information and their ability to gather it all. So it changed a lot of things in terms of how sales has to be conducted and how marketing has to be conducted. And then the other side of the equation that also changed is that the Internet created a situation where almost every core business gets commoditized, and price becomes the ultimate competitive factor. And so what happened is the Internet basically said, I don’t know. If you’re charging a buck, I’ll charge 99¢. And the other guy said, well, I’ll go to 98 cents. And then ultimately, we figured out, hey.

Steven Sheiner:

I’ll just give it away for nothing to make it free. And that just trashed people’s margins. So what that created was 2 things. It created a need for companies to figure out how to market what I call around the edges. And by the edges, I mean, what is it that you can sell that customer that won’t get commoditized or can only be sold because you have a relationship already with them? It created the need to find more of those and also created the need for salespeople to recognize that they’re no longer the purveyors of the primary information. Now what they have to do is help the buyer figure out what is important within that information and make them understand the differentiation between your product and somebody else’s because they already know. And so there’s a couple of statistics. The average person goes to 1.25 car dealers before they buy a car, which essentially means if they don’t close you the first time, the next guy gets you.

Steven Sheiner:

Most people don’t. Right? So when somebody walks in to buy a car, they already know pretty much all the stuff they wanna know about that car. So that’s where the salesmanship now comes in because you’re not teaching them why the car this Toyota is better than the Nissan. No. You’re trying to convince them you’re the right person to buy the car from. They’ve already pretty much made the decision. And when it comes to the products that you’re selling, you have to recognize that you’re in a price competition that’s very, very much available for someone to see what the other guys’ prices are. So you don’t have that issue where there’s no transparency.

Steven Sheiner:

Almost everything’s transparent. So it changes the way in which you have to purvey information. It changes the way you have to sell. It also changes the way in which you have to reach the client because they’re not reaching out to you anymore saying, send me a brochure. They don’t need to. Right. They’re on the Internet, which is why I guess I should have a website.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. Well, I mean, hey. If you don’t need one, everybody wants to be used deep. So I don’t if it ain’t broke, don’t don’t fix it. So how has your journey been? I mean, you know, mp3.com, that was quite a quite a few years ago. That was really, you know, groundbreaking stuff. So how has your work changed now with, you know, with the Internet being so big and the speed of information and misinformation? You know, what kind of clients are you working with now?

Steven Sheiner:

Well, I still work with a lot of different clients in a lot of different industries. I mean, at the moment, I’ve got a virtual reality developer. I’m working with a company called Defensify, which is online training in the health field with sovereignty, which is which is, senior health, DMG, the digital marketing group, which is involved in actually training, creating a way in which fractionals and consultants can actually use strategic tactics to sell strategy as the first product that they sell. I know that sounds a little convoluted. Essentially, if you think about consultants or even, you know, fractionals, they go in and they say, I can do everything that everybody else says they can do. But very few people actually invest in strategic planning, and it’s something that is not normally a deliverable for consultants. What we’ve done is using the digital marketing group to create software to make strategic planning a product that is actually a deliverable that you can sell at the beginning of the engagement to actually get the engagement. So instead of saying, here’s all the things that you should do, we say, let’s do a strategic plan, and now I’ll deliver you a 25, 30 page document that shows what you should be doing, and then I’ll sell against that document for a long term engagement.

Steven Sheiner:

And the software they’ve developed allows you to do that plan in 2 or 3 hours and have a really great deliverable. So it’s a very cool thing. The difference today between then and now is that some of your tactics have had to change. I still believe there’s a place for outbound telemarketing and calling people and just picking up the phone, but the truth is people don’t answer the way they used to. And with cell phones, 9 times out of 10, if they don’t recognize the number, they don’t pick up the call. So what that means, which is really what you talk about a lot, is you need to do a lot of content marketing. You need to put yourself out there so that when somebody is looking for information, they find yours. And that means that if you’re not spending time and effort on building content marketing, if you’re not doing SEO, if you’re not publishing articles, if you’re not using, if it’s it’s b to b, LinkedIn, if it’s if it’s, consumer, it’s now, I guess, Facebook and and TikTok, Instagram, etcetera.

Steven Sheiner:

And if you’re not using those tools, you’re not gonna be successful. But the basics are still the same. Right? You gotta reach, find you know, identify who you have to talk to and then figure out all the different ways you can get to talk to them.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I mean, I love what you said about phones. Nobody’s answering them anymore. I I I was, I had a chiropractor appointment, and I’m in Costa Rica now. And so he answered his phone. The guy knew 2 transactions that he had just made on his bank account in the last hour, but he thought didn’t give him any information, nothing. Hung up the phone, went to the bank. They had taken $20,000 out of his bank account with, like, no recourse because Costa Rica is not the United States.

Molly Ruland:

And all he did was answer the phone. So I think those phone calls are gonna get harder and harder to get some traction on. But, yeah, people are reached in a lot of different ways now, but you have to be really, you know, creative in that, but also keep your true messaging.

Steven Sheiner:

No. You have to use all the tools because, you know, for a lot of years, I did a lot of direct response television. And people would say to me, clients in particular, I don’t believe in direct response television. And you look at them and go, because they don’t use it. I never called an ad from TV. And you look at them and go, okay. You didn’t. What about the 999,000,000 other people that did? I mean They did.

Steven Sheiner:

Some people don’t respond to newspapers or articles. Some people don’t respond to magazine ads. Some people don’t respond to TikTok TikTok. But if you cover all the bases, you hit, we all respond to something, and most people have a preference. Some people prefer magazines. Some people prefer online. Some people prefer telemarketing. Some people like television.

Steven Sheiner:

Some people like radio. The issue isn’t what you like. The issue is what will reach your client, and can you get a return on that investment. And just because one is better than another, doesn’t mean the other shouldn’t be used as long as it’s giving you the ROI that you’ve determined. If I have a product that can stand a $100 cost per lead, and I have one that does 50 and another one that does 75 and another one that does 95, I don’t not do the 95 because it’s not as good as the 50 or the 75. As long as the number works for me, I do them all because at the end of the day, you’re looking for an ROI and a return on that investment. And if you get that return, keep doing it. That’s the second part, which is you gotta just keep testing and keep trying different things.

Steven Sheiner:

And if you’re staying static, you’ll fail.

Molly Ruland:

For sure. And then what about, like, there’s a lot of new stuff coming out every day. There’s a new thing. Is it SMS? It’s this. Next week, it’ll be holograms delivered at your front door. You know, God only knows. So how do you navigate that with your clients? You know, because you do need to diversify your efforts, but then that shiny object syndrome is real because there’s just always some new thing. So do you test those new things out? Are you open to those things, or do you stick with the No.

Steven Sheiner:

No. I’m not absolutely open to everything. But the thing not to do is spend too little to be successful on a test. So if you can’t spend enough to do it right, don’t do it.

Molly Ruland:

Don’t do it.

Steven Sheiner:

Right? That’s the real key because someone will say to you, well, I I you know, this used to be the case with direct mail a lot. I mailed 2,000 pieces, and I didn’t get any response. And you go, okay. That wasn’t statistically meaningful. So all I told you is the first 2,000 people weren’t there, but it could have been all the responses were the last 500. You don’t know.

Molly Ruland:

So You never know. Yeah.

Steven Sheiner:

You gotta look at it. And if the medium says that it makes sense, if you can’t spend enough to test it correctly, don’t do it. Because the results won’t be the won’t be true, and you will just waste your money. But, yeah, you should test anything you can afford to test that you can get a positive ROI with. And not to test too many things at once so that you’re overwhelmed. So it’s gotta be a little strategic.

Molly Ruland:

Convoluted results. I think that’s excellent advice because it’s easy to get overwhelmed with all the new things. But like you said, if you’re not doing it right, if you’re not running into the ground all the way, then it’s a waste of time. And I I I tell that with podcast clients too. I’m like, listen. You know, I talk friends off the ledge all the time from starting podcasts. And I’m like, listen. I know I’m a podcast producer, but, like, this is gonna be a waste of your time.

Molly Ruland:

You’re not doing it right. You’re not interviewing the right people. It’s so much time and effort, like, to go on other people’s podcasts. Or, like, there’s another way to do this without if you’re not gonna do it all the way, then don’t do it at all, which is counterintuitive to business sometimes. You know?

Steven Sheiner:

Oh, no. But especially when you know, it’s one thing when something’s new, it’s relatively easy to get traction. But once this starts to get a lot of activity, it’s no longer easy to get that traction. Years ago, I worked with some guys that were putting together apps for, iPhone. It was really easy to have a successful app on the iPhone. There weren’t too many apps. You could basically throw an app out there and with very little marketing effort, get traction that made it look like it was worth having. Today, if you wanna have a consumer iPhone app and you don’t have the money to promote it, it is a complete waste of time.

Steven Sheiner:

It’ll fail. And the problem they have is somebody looks at it and says, well, look how all these apps are doing so well. I’m gonna jump in. But if you can’t afford to market it properly, all you did was throw the money away. Go find something that’ll work for you. So these are the things you have to consider when you look at all these new technologies. If you get in early, you have a really good shot of grabbing the momentum. But if it’s already established and you don’t put enough marketing muscle behind it, it’s a complete waste of time.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. And that can be pretty tricky, right, especially for small businesses that don’t have huge budgets and they don’t know where to spend it. And, you know, I’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about AI a little bit. Like, how do you think that, because I can see it being really helpful, but I can also see it, like, being the nail in the coffin for some businesses if they don’t use it the right way. Right? So, you know, how are you navigating that space with your clients?

Steven Sheiner:

Where possible, trying to harness it and use it to improve products or better understand it. So for example, with AI, it’s really easy for us to do a lot of data analytics that would have been difficult before. So Mhmm. We’re better able with it to look at what the usage is, how people are using the product courses that they’re taking, things of that nature. I think for most businesses, it’s not a threat. It’s actually accurate. They should be able to make better decisions and use it to, you know, successfully. There’s a lot of hype, so there’s obviously a lot of, you know, bullshit around it that doesn’t doesn’t solve a lot of every problem.

Steven Sheiner:

Mhmm. I think overall, it’ll be positive as long as it doesn’t end up blowing up the world. I think we should be okay.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. Aside from that,

Steven Sheiner:

you know Yeah. Aside from that, it’s a good thing to say. I will say this. I mean, in one client company that I’m working with, we gather what are called activities of daily living. Those are all the things that people do. Go to the bathroom, wake up, etcetera, of seniors. We actually are able to send that data up in the cloud. And then using AI, we’re able to identify acute diseases up to 14 days before they become acute.

Steven Sheiner:

Illnesses, right. Things like, oh, look at that. Based on the change in your living pattern, you can expect to have this kind of an outcome like a UTI infection or likelihood to fall, things like that. And that’s only doable because of AI, because of the ability to take so much information and then use that data to actually turn that into something that’s actionable. So there’s a tremendous amount of value and usage that they can have. Most businesses, it won’t change all that much. It depends very much on what you’re selling. I mean, how’s AI gonna change the world for a roofing contractor?

Molly Ruland:

Right.

Steven Sheiner:

Or a plumber or electrician. You know? It’s not gonna change all that much. But for some, especially those that have tech as part of the statement. It’s also opening up opportunities, though, for marketing to be able to test content more rapidly, to be able to better identify prospects. I mean, there are a lot of benefits. And if you’ll take a look, you’ll see how much AI is being incorporated in lead generation products and services and things like that. So I think overall, it’ll be accurate.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I I like what you said. I think, for me, what I’ve noticed is I don’t really like the AI generated content at all. I think it’s all trash for the most part. Right? It’s, you know, delving and dive diving, and it’s a bunch of stuff nobody ever says. Right? But using it for analysis and improvement of content, I find it to be very helpful. Summarizing things, you know, getting information out of it, I find it to be helpful.

Steven Sheiner:

You know what I find actually on the content side? It’s really good for a first draft. Yeah. So if you use AI and the right prompts, etcetera, to get that first draft written and then rewrite around what they’ve got, it really is helpful. I mean, it can save you all kinds of time and effort. If you just take it, press the button, and say, oh, there’s the result. I think I’ll publish it. Then it’s garbage because it’s machines. I think the best way I like to describe it is that AI can copy Shakespeare, but it’s not Shakespeare.

Molly Ruland:

Right. Right.

Steven Sheiner:

But I do find it probably valuable for that first draft, which is always easier to edit than it is to start from scratch.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. Even if you edit the whole paragraph, it’s still just it gets you going. It gets you on the track and gets you moving, and I think that that really makes a big difference. Yeah. I mean, it’s really, kind of interesting to see who’s gonna use AI, who’s not, how it’s gonna help. You know? I think some people are jumping the gun and getting rid of people and replacing PR companies. I think that’s gonna backfire a little bit. Usually, guys.

Steven Sheiner:

Usually, guys.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. You know, that quick fix. So, what are some of the things that you’re doing with your clients in this current market? Because, you know, you know, depending on who you ask, business is harder or easier to get. But I think for most people, it’s just a different market than it was right after the pandemic. So how are you navigating this current space with your current clients? You know, what’s a big trend that you’re seeing?

Steven Sheiner:

Well, I think the big trend is content marketing and SEO and using and using content as the driver. You know, when I first started in direct marketing and direct sales, free gifts were the key. Right? Where would you like me to deliver that television set? But the truth of the matter is now it’s delivering content and using content. And that’s really where with most of my clients, we put the extra effort now is how do we deliver content that people wanna read and is valuable so that we can at least start it. And the idea really is to recognize that there is a selling cycle when people are ready to buy. You don’t know when that cycle starts. And content is the way for you to be there so that when the cycle is gonna start and they start to get into the buying mode, you’re the person or the company that they remember. And that’s why having a long tail content strategy is really critical.

Steven Sheiner:

I remember years ago, I lived in Los Angeles at the time, and I had a BMW. And for years, 3 years, I used to look at this weekly magazine and, you know, the weekly newspaper. And every week, there was an ad that said, when your BMW is out of warranty, call us and save 50% on your own repairs. And for 3 years, I saw that ad, but I had a warranty. Then the warranty ran out, and I needed to fix my car, and they stopped advertising. I could never find that company again. All I needed was 3 years 2 months more, and they woulda had me

Molly Ruland:

in the company. Yeah. But

Steven Sheiner:

knows? Right? So that’s why when you’re doing something, it’s not a case where somebody says, well, I did a bunch of articles and it didn’t work. Yeah. Okay. It didn’t work. It didn’t work not because it won’t work. It didn’t work because whatever timing you needed to be in, you couldn’t couldn’t hear it. The famous, you know, joke for comedians is, you know, what does it take to get a good joke? And the answer is timing. Marketing is the same thing.

Steven Sheiner:

It’s timing. So when you start doing these programs and you say, well, I’m gonna do a couple of months of content marketing and, oh, I’m not getting any results. I think I’ll stop. Well, you probably just, you know, put the nail in the coffin because you stopped. What you have to recognize is these are things that have to become part of the company DNA. This is something that we do consistently over and over and over again. And when we measure it, we’re not measuring it in terms of weeks or months. We’re measuring it over a long period of time.

Steven Sheiner:

You have to sort of take that sort of view that all the content that you’re creating, all the publishing that you’re doing will pay off over time if you give it time. If you don’t, it won’t. It’s that simple.

Molly Ruland:

I mean, amen to that because you could write 1,000,000 blogs in August and ain’t nobody gonna call you because everybody’s on vacation versus if you did that same test in February or June, you know, what results would you get? So, yeah, the long haul really means consistency really matters. You know? And I I think you’re right. I think it is content marketing and SEO. And I don’t think you need to be an SEO expert, but I think that people need to have an SEO lens, if you will. Right? Like, you know, with our company, we sell podcasting as business development, but also, you know, form the relationship. The stake is on the plate. There’s always the stake, and that’s the relationship, number 1. And then number 2 is the potatoes because I’m Irish, and that’s the SEO content.

Molly Ruland:

You know? A podcast, you got the transcription. You got metadata. You can write blogs, newsletter. I mean, you can write a mountain of content from that, all SEO weighted, and then you’ve got your social proof. But it’s the same concept. Like, let the content do the work, form the relationship, and then create everything from that work smarter, not harder, instead of focusing on social and and then trying to get people backwards. And it’s like it, I just don’t think it goes that way. You know? I think you can build some of that familiarity, but, like, I don’t know.

Molly Ruland:

I’ve never had anybody call me off a social media post. You know?

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah. But, again, it’s all part of, you know, keeping that your name in front. I mean, I’m not huge . I personally don’t like Facebook, so I don’t personally use it. But as a marketing tool, if you’re trying to reach an audience that’s big on Facebook, yeah, you need to post on Facebook. Is it inexpensive? So it can be inexpensive. So, you know, it’s one of those things that you put as part of the mix. The other thing you have to do is you have to take a look at your business and decide what other things that you can sell to your clients and what they need that your relationship actually makes it easier for you to sell.

Steven Sheiner:

And so when I talked earlier, I mentioned the term adjacency. The best example of that is Amazon. If you look at Amazon’s ecommerce business, it’s really not a great business. Right? Ecommerce, their store revenue is huge, but the margins are lousy. And if you compare it to brick and mortar like Walmart, they absolutely are up for it. But if it wasn’t for the ecommerce business, they wouldn’t have AWS, the marketplace, the advertising, Prime, all these other products they were able to build around what was an effective business that has to have lousy margins in order to get volume. So when you’re looking at your strategies and your sales strategies, look at your business and what you’re doing and see are there other services or other ways of positioning what you do that could extend the revenue with the existing clients that can bring you the high margin. Because very often, expanding the relationship that you have with existing clients by adding services that are not gonna be constrained by margin is where the profit comes in.

Steven Sheiner:

And that’s the other part of it. And that’s not so much marketing as it is just strategy on how to generate revenue.

Molly Ruland:

Strategy. Yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting you say that because a lot of people are gonna be preaching the opposite. They’re saying stay in your lane, be known for one thing, only use, you know I I mean, people have told me multiple times, you should just produce podcasts for one type of person. Like, I’m not only gonna produce for doctors or lawyers. Like, I don’t wanna do that. That feels very limiting to me, and so I have adjacent products like podcast booking, you know, other things. And a lot of people kinda dissuade me from that, but I feel the same way.

Molly Ruland:

Like, my clients go deep with us. Right? They’ll say, oh, you do websites too? Great. Can we get a quote? Oh, you do audiobooks too? Great. Let me get a quote because they know how we work. But a lot of people, like, actively will discourage me and other businesses from doing that and say, stay in your niche, stay focused, don’t go outside of that, be known for one thing. But I’m on I’m on your team with, you know Well,

Steven Sheiner:

I guess what it really comes down to is, you know, if you couldn’t do those things well or scale them, don’t do them. If you can do them well and scale them, you should be doing it because the truth is in sales, the real key to any sales is that first order where somebody is no longer thinking of you as a salesperson, but they’re now thinking of you as a valued vendor or a partner. And once you have overcome the, oh, that’s a sales guy to that’s a partner, now the opportunity to do a lot more businesses there because you’ve built that trust factor unless you screwed up something, but, you know, on the way. And if you could take advantage of that change in the relationship and be that trusted partner, then it opens up the opportunity to take adjacencies. So if somebody said to you, Molly, you know, stay in your lane, well, define your lane.

Molly Ruland:

What’s my lane?

Steven Sheiner:

Just as a podcaster or are you actually a digital marketer that offers a lot of tools? Well, then all these things are in your lane. So it’s really a definition, you know? Yeah. I wouldn’t suggest you go sell vitamins. That’s not in your lane.

Molly Ruland:

That’s not in my lane. Exactly. I mean, yeah, we sell websites and we don’t market it a lot, but the reality is we start talking to people, everybody needs a new website. And so it came out of necessity. And then all of a sudden now we’ve built 100 of websites and it’s a significant part of our revenue. And we don’t even advertise it because we don’t really need to. You know what I mean? It just works. And it’s yeah.

Steven Sheiner:

I mean, if you ask most people what are the drivers that get them to do business with somebody, price is always part of the mix, but not everybody buys the cheapest product. If they did, you wouldn’t have a lot of very expensive products on the market. They buy the thing that makes them feel better or they buy based on a relationship. And if you’re in a service business like marketing and advertising, the relationship is actually the most crucial part. And if you’ve built that trust relationship, then it opens up the opportunity to find those adjacencies. Just don’t do them if you can’t do them well.

Molly Ruland:

If you can’t do them well. And amen to that. And, you know, I I love this conversation because I am convinced that everything is gonna boil down to relationships. I think we’ve gotten a little further away from that with all the automations and stuff, and I get that. But, like, we still need to connect as people, And we, you know, we want we should wanna see our clients win. Right? We should wanna be on their team. We should, you know, in a perfect world, when you think of a client, you should have a smile come to your face because you actually like them, and you’re excited to work there you know? And so why wouldn’t you wanna do other services for them and maintain that relationship? Because I think in this market, with everything going on in the world, I think relationships are the only thing that’s gonna, number 1, make our businesses thrive and survive and our lives better, personal and professional. You know?

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah. I don’t think that I don’t think people understand the value of their networks. A lot of people don’t. Yeah. Especially younger people starting out who don’t realize that that network in 20 years from now is gonna be the most valuable thing they have. That’s the one that allows them to go from one business to another business or one company to another company is their ability to pick up the phone with people they’ve been doing business with for a long time and have those relationships, and that’s worth gold. They don’t really train that. They think connection, you know, I connected and I’m on Facebook, and we’re on the same Facebook page as a relationship, but it’s not.

Molly Ruland:

It’s

Steven Sheiner:

not. Building relationships is really critical, especially early in your career or early in your business. Because at some point, those relationships are going to be the difference between being highly successful or, yeah, maybe doing okay. So yeah.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I mean, proof is in the pudding. I have a friend from 25 years ago who approached me last year about a business idea, and we just made it official yesterday. If you had told me 25 years ago that we’d be entering into this agreement, I would have thought you were crazy, but here we are. And so it matters. You know, it really does matter. So, well, I was gonna say if you have 30 seconds to give a budding entrepreneur, what advice, what would it be? But I think you just answered that question. But if you have anything else to add

Steven Sheiner:

No. I think I think that’s good. The main thing to do is remember that, it’s okay to make a mistake. Just recognize when you make a mistake.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. Own it. Own Fix it.

Steven Sheiner:

Oh, yeah. So own it, fix it, or recognize, you know, to cut it. I mean, the hard part is knowing when to quit. And if you see that it’s not working, recognize that it’s not working, and don’t kid yourself. That’s the biggest thing most entrepreneurs do is they just don’t recognize not working, but they just have so much hope. But you can’t cash hope on you know, it doesn’t pay the rent. Right?

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. Hope doesn’t pay the rent. Amen. I mean, it’s the truth. It doesn’t. And, yeah. I, you know, I used to own a business, a multimedia company, and I closed it in 2018. And it was because I was listening to Tom Bilyeu’s podcast, and he interviews all these really you know, he’s kinda gone off the deep end now, so I can’t recommend it.

Molly Ruland:

But 4 years ago, he was interviewing, like, Ray Dalio and, like, you know, really, I mean, in intelligent smart people. And one of the biggest takeaways was, like, you don’t have to do this anymore. And the biggest mistake that business owners make is not knowing when to say when and stop because your greatest success is gonna come after your greatest failure. But if you keep kicking the ball down the wrong side of the field, you’re never gonna get any closer to the goalpost. Right? And I gotta tell you, I was, like, you know, in the oh, god. I was cleaning Airbnbs, the cup I mean, I was breaking myself to run this business, and I remember just stopping my tracks and thinking to myself, wait a minute. Maybe if I just stop this, then what’s really ahead is it will have an opportunity to get there, and that’s exactly what will happen. So I think that’s excellent advice.

Steven Sheiner:

You don’t see it anymore, but there was a very famous direct marketing ad from the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties that sort of died out. It was a guy by the name of Bernie Carbo who wrote a book on how to get rich. But it’s the headline that is so powerful. I was too busy trying to earn a living to get rich. And then, of course, he sold you a book for $99. But he got rich doing it. But, the point is there. Right? Sometimes you’re just too busy trying to earn a living, and you just have to sort of back up and take a look.

Steven Sheiner:

And the nice thing about the United States is, you know, if you fail, nobody really faults you for it. We have a culture that accepts failure. It’s not like Japan where you fail, you gotta, you know, commit sudoku or whatever. I mean, in the United States, failing is okay. It’s not the end of the world if you fail. People will accept that you failed. In fact, many times they’ll look at somebody who’s failed and say, well, I learned a good lesson. That’s good.

Steven Sheiner:

I think now he’s got a better shot of being successful.

Molly Ruland:

So Yeah.

Steven Sheiner:

The key He’s

Molly Ruland:

ahead of the curve.

Steven Sheiner:

Key is, like, just don’t lie to yourself. That’s really the key. Don’t try to fool yourself and hope because like I said, you can’t cash that check. Doesn’t exist.

Molly Ruland:

I love that. Okay. I have one more question for you. What book would you recommend? Like, what book has had the most impact or what book have you enjoyed the most, or course, or anything like that?

Steven Sheiner:

I think it’s worthwhile to read, you know, stuff like Clayton Christensen. Mhmm. You know, highly valuable. I think also if you don’t understand behavioral economics, you should be reading books around behavioral economics and understanding how behavioral science really does impact how people purchase, how people do things. I think anything that you can read in those areas, you know, behavioral science, Canaman, etcetera, guys like that will help you. Yeah. What I really suggest is read as much as you can. Sign up for as many blogs as you can that are from some of the people that are doing some good stuff, like Katie Gorgon, how people buy things like that.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah.

Steven Sheiner:

And just pay attention and then try to get as varied an understanding of things as you can. And if you’re in the engineering type, don’t read engineering books. Book. Read something that’s outside your lane because the thing that holds most people back is they just don’t have enough breadth of experience to understand what the other options are. And that’s one of the things that, you know, comes with age. Right? If you do a lot of different things, you’ve had a lot of different lessons, so you get to look at things with a different lens. And that’s the hard part, especially for young entrepreneurs, is that they think a lot of stuff they’re doing is new, and maybe they’re doing it in a new way, but it’s not new. So if you really understood what happened before you, it’ll help you understand what you have to do.

Steven Sheiner:

And I think the best example of that is that most people don’t remember a company called Webvan. Webvan was around 1998, 99, 2000. They were the original company that blew up probably a half a $1,000,000,000 on grocery delivery. Completely failed. I mean, went through a half a $1,000,000,000, really a lot of smart money got thrown at it. They were just too early. They weren’t wrong about grocery delivery. They were just wrong about how it had to be done.

Steven Sheiner:

So understanding a lot of things that went before you and what’s new and what’s just new and improved becomes a pretty pretty important part of understanding how you should move forward.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. I’ll cosign that. I, when I closed my last business, I recognized that there was a more than a gap in my education. It was a huge chasm, a Grand Canyon of learning that I had ahead of me because I was a I had IP and equipment and relationships and know how, but I didn’t have project management skills. I didn’t have a business degree. And so I just thought, well, I’m gonna get the the new education, and I read a 135 books on business development over 3 years and and really listened to them, like, really actively listened to them, and not just while the TV’s on and, you know, and I I learned a lot. And, you know, everybody who’s smart and successful in the world has a book at this point, and there’s nothing stopping you from learning from the mistakes that they’ve made because it’s on Audible for $12. So there’s Yeah.

Molly Ruland:

There’s really no excuse why, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, it was a lot harder to get this information. You know? Now it’s available to you. And so, I read books from guys I don’t like, like Grant Cardone. If I hear that guy say 10 x one more time, I’ll jump off a bridge. You know what I mean? Like, but there was, like, 1 or 2 gems in that book that I was like, I don’t like that guy. Not my vibe, but, like, okay. That was a good one that I will take with me and adjust in my own way. But there’s really no excuse at this point, when you have the world at your fingertips and all this information.

Molly Ruland:

I mean, you can overwhelm yourself too, but understanding who came before you, you know, and understanding you’re not the first guy, I think, can really help to structure how you sell things, how you package things, how you feel about it, and, and maybe even be a little more willing to let go of it when it’s not working so you can get to the next thing that will.

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah. I think the hardest lesson that people have is that nobody cares about you. They care only about themselves. Right. And I don’t mean that in the, you know, in the I guess I do. It sounds kinda harsh. But the truth of the matter is when you walk in to sell somebody something, they don’t care about your company. They only care about what that company is gonna do for them.

Steven Sheiner:

Do. And one of the things that I’ve noticed a lot is that, especially people that don’t have a lot of experience, they’re busy selling what they do instead of why it’s gonna help the customer. So we’re you know, like, for example, you’ll see someone who’ll write something. We’re the best company at doing x, y, and z. I don’t care if you’re the best company at x, y, and z. I care if using you makes me the best company for me. That’s what I care about. So that’s the other lesson in direct marketing.

Steven Sheiner:

They call it with them. What’s in it for me? That’s the lesson that people really have to learn. When you write a copy, when you have a sales meeting, when you’re trying to close a deal, it’s never about what about you. It’s always about what’s in it for them. And if you remember that, I think you’ll be more successful as

Molly Ruland:

well. Amen. That’s, like, Donald Donald Miller’s story brand. He talks a lot about, like, you’re the hero. You’re not the hero. You’re the guide. You’re Yoda. You’re not Luke Skywalker.

Molly Ruland:

You know, like, you’re and everybody gets it wrong. We this, we that, especially in the life coaching world. You see this beautiful picture of this perfect woman in a field talking about how great she is. And meanwhile, you need a life coach. So you’re probably at home eating ice cream, crying. You haven’t showered in 4 days. Like, I don’t wanna look at your perfect self. I wanna see a picture of, like, a slightly overweight, stressed out, c suite executive woman who’s looking for change in her life, because then I might see myself in that.

Molly Ruland:

I don’t wanna see your perfect dazzle on the screen. That doesn’t that that just doesn’t make me wanna work with you. And that’s like a blaring example, but a lot of companies do the same. They get it wrong in their own special way. You know?

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah. No. Exactly. I mean, it’s kinda like, you see these ads for cosmetics for anti-aging products, and I had a skincare company that I built and sold. And you see that they all do the same thing. They use young models and those who don’t need skincare. I mean Right. They’re not a wrinkle on them because they’re 22 years old.

Steven Sheiner:

Yeah.

Molly Ruland:

I hear you. Yeah.

Steven Sheiner:

How is that gonna get someone who’s 48 years old, overweight, and sitting in Des Moines, Iowa to go buy a product that that person didn’t need to begin with? No. It’s great. Dove got that one right, actually, with their campaigns where they show real women who really actually might benefit from the product. We’re still trying to figure out why you need all over body protection, but that’s another problem.

Molly Ruland:

Yeah. From all the bears in the woods that we’re tangling with. That’s where, you know, 2 good ones. Well, listen, Steven, we have gone over our time, so I will wrap it up. But this was a great conversation. I appreciate spending time with you and learning more about you. If people are interested in communicating with you more or engaging with you, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Steven Sheiner:

They can find me on LinkedIn or just, you know, send me an email at steve@cstpartners.com.

Molly Ruland:

I mean, that’s easy enough. And we will have all your links and everything in the show notes below so people can access you there. You won’t be able to go to his website, people, so don’t get your hopes up because there isn’t one. Although you never know. If you ever need one, you call me, Steve.

Steven Sheiner:

I’ll I’ll

Molly Ruland:

build you a beautiful website. But, I I love that you read that, and I was like, this is amazing. I can’t wait for this conversation. So good on you. Don’t fold. Hold hold toe the line. Don’t get a website. Okay.

Molly Ruland:

I’ll do that. But, Annette, thank you for coming on the show today and spending some time with us. I appreciate the conversation. It’s always good to connect with people and have these kinds of, these kinds of talks. So thanks for your time, and, I’m sure we’ll keep the conversation going somehow, some way. So

Steven Sheiner:

Sure.

Molly Ruland:

Thank you for tuning in to Cam Content today. I hope you found this valuable. You know, sometimes there’s a book that I really love called the 1 page marketing plan, and it really just dials into, Alan Dibbbs. Dibbs is his name. It’s like the basics, and sometimes we gotta get back to the basics. Learn what you don’t know, nurture relationships, and do things well or don’t do them at all. Right? And these are the biggest takeaways from this conversation, and I don’t think those will ever change. So thank you for tuning in.

Molly Ruland:

If and if you found it valuable, please share it on your network. And until next time, be excellent to each

Steven Sheiner:

other. Thanks.